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Cams- V65 Society Excerpts |
Camshafts/ Rockers
The following
relates in detail difficulties encountered with the V-4 cams. It serves as a reference for
anybody who doubts that there is a difficulty. The cams may or may not be too soft in some
applications, but that is not the problem. The problem has been identified as poor head
oiling. The softer cams, of course, do not help. The solution is to modify the oiling
system, called 'The Oil Mod.' This is well documented at this site, Robyn Landers
site, and the FAQ. Any other questions, contact me.
Bruce B. (`83 Magna) experienced one failed cam and two rockers at around 15k. Greg S.
(`83 Magna) experienced a worn rocker at 18k... repair quote, $350-400. Geoffrey Y. (`85
Magna) noted a scored rear exhaust cam at 18k. Shawn H.(`84 Magna) replaced his cams and
chain tensioners at under 29k... cams cost $70 each, tensioners $45 each, from Banzai.
Keith M. (`83 Magna) replaced his cams, rockers, etc. at under 40k. Ray T. (`84 Sabre)
replaced his cams, rockers, etc. at under 40k. Gaylon G. (`86 Magna) replaced his cams and
rockers at 50k. Despite these cam failures, Rob T. has 107k on his `85 V65 Sabre, and
reports that the original cams are fine, and have only light pitting if anything.
According to Art Reitsma, some of the earlier cams were so soft, they would not even
register on a Rockwell hardness tester. At one point, Honda apparently upgraded the
quality of their cams. However, it is still unclear to me exactly when, and in what
models, this took place. Some say that `83 V65s have inherent cam problems, but the later
ones are fine. Some say that only the early V45s had inherent cam problems, and all V65s
are fine. Some feel that all V4s before `86 are subject to cam failure, and that truly
adequate replacement cams have only appeared more recently. There have been random cases
of failed cams in V45s and V65s up to at least 1986, no clear pattern. Regardless, the
cams offered now by Honda are apparently improved versions, with a more durable surface,
and extra lubrication grooves on the journals, as noted by Shawn H.
Cam failures seemed to originate in Europe, where higher speeds, and thus higher rpms are
more common. Due to this observation, it has become common belief that high rpm usage is
what hurts the cams. In support of this, most enthusiasts who admit that they ride hard,
have had to replace their cams and rockers (along with clutches, transmission parts,
etc.). The many enthusiasts who claim to ride in a sane fashion report no apparent cam
problems. With this in mind, many enthusiasts are satisfied believing that their V4 cams
will remain intact as long as they don't beat the living daylights out of the engine.
However, a Honda rep recently told Ray T. that prolonged idling will hurt the cams too.
The rep explained that during idle, the oil pressure to the cams is inadequate, and in
addition, idling allows the cams to get very hot. These two factors combined spell trouble
for "weak" cams. Some knowledgeable enthusiasts specifically recommend keeping
revs UP in order to provide adequate oil pressure to the cams. They recommend raising the
idle adjustment, and also recommend cruising at a slightly higher rpm than what might
normally seem fit. In addition, some swap in lower temperature radiator fan stat switches
to keep engine temperatures lower at idle.
It appears that in both idling and high rpm situations, the "soft" cams are not
getting enough oil to keep them intact. Also, it is a fact that the cams/rockers receive unfiltered
oil of a relatively low pressure due to the stock oil system design. To improve the
situation, various aftermarket oil modification kits have been produced to provide
filtered oil of greater volume/pressure to the cams. (see OIL KIT - MODS)
You can purchase new OEM cams from Honda or Banzai, or have your used cams reground and
hardfaced. Outfits such as Web Cams, MegaCycle, Shadbolt, etc., offer such a service. Keep
in mind that the regrinding and hardfacing of used cams can be more expensive (about
$450/set) than a set of new OEM cams ($300/set from Banzai). The article by Art Reitsma
about Shadbolt suggests otherwise however. Regardless, you may have a better chance of
receiving a true high quality "hard" surface when specifically having your cams
hardfaced as opposed to buying new stock OEM cams, since mass produced parts may vary in
quality due to wider error margins. Plus, the aftermarket outfits provide slightly wilder
grinds for those who might enjoy a bit more top end.
Don't forget the rockers (cam followers). You wouldn't want to install new cams along with
damaged pitted rockers. Web Cams specifically recommends using new Honda OEM rockers with
cam replacement.
Another hardening process that can be applied to the cams/rockers is "deep cryogenic
tempering"... parts are frozen to minus 300F degrees. Such a process costs about
$12.50 per cam, $1.50 per rocker arm, plus shipping. For more information, contact 300
Below Motorsports 930 W 23rd St., Suite 19, Tempe, AZ 85282.
Camshaft Specifications
Stock |
Stock |
Megacycle |
Megacycle |
|
| Lift, Inches | .320 |
.320? |
.360 |
.420? |
| Duration: Intake, | 228 |
230 |
234 |
254 |
| Duration Exhaust, Degrees | 230 |
230 |
234 |
254 |
| Lobe separation between intake and exhhaust as installed, Degrees | 107 |
105 |
106 |
108 |
| Overlap, Degrees | 15 |
22 |
38 |
|
| Intake cam set, Degrees at lobe centerline | 106 |
105 |
106 |
108 |
Web Cams also offers similar grinds to the Megacycle, as well as Dodge promotions.
Since most of the above specs have been calculated, they may be inaccurate. In addition, Ray T. and Shawn H. have noticed that their stock Honda cams have asymmetrical lobes. The fact that the above calculations are based on symmetrical lobes is another reason why the above figures are probably inaccurate. I chose to provide the figures anyway, as they serve as a quick comparison guide. The only way to truly figure out the exact profiles, is to fully degree and plot the cams as installed.
Art Reitsma refers to the asymmetrical pattern of the Honda cam lobes as having a
"backside hump, to allow the valve to stay open longer, after the intake flow has
been established, allowing more in for more power". According to an Ultradyne Cam
catalog, the benefits of asymmetrical cam lobes are as follows: the intake ramp is steep
and quick, in order to open the valve fast, thus allowing a later opening point while
retaining similar "area under the curve" compared to a regular pattern with an
earlier opening point. A later intake opening point will help reduce reversion and
overlap, and thus improve low end performance and economy. On the closing side, the ramp
is less steep, and thus "humped", in order to provide a gentle valve closing and
thus prevent valve bounce and float. I'll add that with the 10,000 rpm range of the V65,
anything to help prevent valve bounce/float is necessary. If switching to aftermarket
cams, stick with the asymmetrical type.
According to the Ultradyne catalog, the way to degree asymmetrical cams (find the lobe
centerline), is to use the "50 down" method. In other words, instead of taking
measurements at .050" or 1mm" of lift as usual, take the measurements at a lift
that is about .050" below the maximum lift of the lobe. It does not need to be
exactly .050" below, but an easily read lift nearby. Then, as usual, grab a reading
from the front ramp, then one from the rear ramp, find the difference between the two,
divide by 2, and that's your centerline.
Concerning setting the position of the cams when degreeing, you will need to slot the cam
sprocket attachment holes, according to Web Cams. They suggest that Falicon (813-797-2468)
may provide this service. Ray T. suggests that NRC (Niagra Race Crafters) of Toronto, or
APE of California may provide a sprocket slotting service as well. Dale Walker probably
knows something about this too.
An article by Art Reitsma relates that Geoff Bardal of Shadbolt Cams has witnessed stock
intake cams as having a duration of 227 degrees and stock exhaust cams of 224 degrees.
Geoff came across a "rare" set with 227 int, and 229 exh. None of these figures
match the Honda V65 shop manual specs. Perhaps Geoff is referring to V45 cams? Also, it is
not unusual for service manuals to be inaccurate about such things. In addition, it's
possible that cam profiles were changed a bit over the years. If you really want to know
for sure what's in your bike, or check effective chain stretch, grab your degree wheel and
do some measuring. Has anyone out there degreed their stock cams? Results?
The stock valve timing is fine, needless to say. Plenty of low end power with peak
horsepower occurring roughly 500 rpm before redline. Perfect. No need for a wilder cam
grind, at least for street use. If anything, riders who spend a lot of time touring with a
heavy load can probably benefit by advancing the stock cams, in order to increase low/mid
range power.
Though on paper, the Sabre's stock cam timing is a bit wilder than the Magnas, the real
world difference is not that great. Gaylon G. swapped a set of Sabre cams into his Magna,
and stated that he could not feel much of a difference in performance. Also, if you study
the Sabre and Magna magazine test articles, you'll note no significant difference in
performance between the two models. (see DIFFERENCES B/W MAGNA & SABRE)
Replacing the Cams
Cam Chain Tensioners / Chain
Many have replaced one or both cam chain tensioners at under
20k. The original tensioners are known to be weak. Apparently Honda had updated the
tensioners at one point with an improved version of greater tension. Bruce B. happened to
note little physical difference between the older and newer type tensioner, but the cam
chain noise he was experiencing did stop after installing the new type. New tensioners
cost about $45 each from Banzai.
According to the MagSab page, replacing the tensioners is possible with the engine in the
frame, and without removing the cams. However, it can be tedious and tricky.
Cam chain removal/replacement requires full engine disassembly, all the way down to the
crank. Master link type replacement chains, even if available, are not necessarily
recommended.